Ius Naturale – the Referendum and pre-negotiating positions

THE REFERENDUM

Some of the ideas here come from a two-year old blog – I’ve pulled out the essence that I believe is still pertinent.

The Act of Union was a treaty between two independent kingdoms. It doesn't take two to end a treaty or an agreement, it only takes one, either by negotiating the terms of exit - or unilaterally. The ius civile and the ius gentium are undoubtedly relevant, but so is the ius naturale, especially after 300 plus years. If the UK Government wilfully misunderstands this, and continues to act like the Romans in decline, then the Scots will become less civil and move towards acting naturale - take note, gentlemen ...

Independence is a beautifully simple concept, and needs no complex definition - it means a nation doing its own thing, in every aspect of its affairs. Full fiscal autonomy doesn't need Ming Campbell's version of the Steel Committee to tell us what it is - it's independence in everything except the ultimate sovereignty of Westminster, foreign policy and defence, the nuclear deterrent and membership of the EU and the UN.

If you really expect us to blow our negotiating hand in advance of the referendum outcome on the detail of the negotiation that will inevitable follow, dream on, UK. But by all means set out what you see as the detailed agenda for that negotiation, and we'll let you know what we think of the items that might be up for discussion. Most of them are self-evident as heads of negotiation – have a read at Scotland’s Future if you’re as bereft of ideas as you appear to be.

And lastly, Alistair Darling, David Cameron, George Osborne, Alistair Carmichael – and Gordon Brown(?) - if you want to go down in history as statesmen, rather than as pompous windbags, you might consider addressing the issues in an adult, statesmanlike fashion. Try and act in the spirit of the ius naturale. The Roman Empire first began to negotiate seriously when it was near to collapse - maybe the UK can make a better job of it in similar circumstances ...

We know what side you're on - the UK's side - and you know what side we're on - Scotland's - and England's and Wales's and Northern Ireland's. Talk calmly about the issues that lie ahead and stop your ridiculous posturing and grandstanding - it cuts nae ice wi' Scots. Frankly, it gie's us the boke ...

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Alternative views of an independent Scotland – the reality of independence negotiations

A number of comments on my YouTube videos – and in the wider debate reflect different views on key policies in an independent Scotland, e.g. on currency, EU, monarchy, etc. This is because the YES campaign is broad-based and contains many views and many political parties – and those of no party. However, some supporters do not seem to have grasped the key dynamics  of what follows a YES vote and the current political realities and time scale.

Here is my response – and my understanding - offered to one such commentator offering multiple scenarios for independent Scotland’s relationship with the EU.

PETER CURRAN’S REPLY TO COMMENT

The independence negotiations will be conducted by the negotiating team selected by the Scottish government and on the basis of its White Paper policies. It will remain the government until May 2016, and an independent Scotland's position vis-a-vis the EU will therefore be determined by the outcome of their negotiations with EU.

Their policy and intent is to remain in the EU, and to negotiate terms of entry as an existing member under UK until independence day. All the options you detail are therefore academic - they will not form part of the negotiations.

Although the YES campaign is a widely-based campaign containing other parties (and those of no party) who have differing views of EU membership (and other issues), they will not influence that policy. The 2016 election campaign will commence March 2016, and all parties are then free to include in their campaign manifestos whatever policies they like, and the Scottish electorate will decide the Government of independent Scotland.

Whatever the outcome of that election, I would hope that the new government - if it is not an SNP government - will not start by wholesale repudiation of major agreements just reached with rUK and EU, nor with a rash of referendums. Such actions would sit very badly with world opinion.

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David Cameron panics, wraps the Union Jack around him – and Alistair’s naebodies Darling …

Scottish Labour's partner and pal in Better Together, David Cameron, terrified by the polls, by today's Spectator article, and by the prospect of debating with Alex Salmond, clutches at the straw of the 2012 Olympics, Team GB and Britishness, and plans to wrap himself in the Union Jack. It may prove to be his political shroud.

"Oh, Danny Boyle! Help me with another spectacular! Can we have Alistair Carmichael in a kilt parachuting on to Lord's Cricket Ground, singing Rule Brittannia? A couple of Royals? Maybe another baby? Are there muffins still for tea?"

The other Alistair is now nobodies Darling. Derided by his own side, a joke to YES campaigners, he seems set for the dustbin of history. Maybe Johann "wee things" Lamont can help, if she can escape the mud flying from the Unite/Falkirk debacle?

May you live in interesting Scottish times, Dave - Eton was never like this...

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And a couple of golden oldie flag-wrapping disasters!

One of a parcel of Scottish Lords, Baronesses and God knows what else tries to defend the indefensible – Lord Lang’s smear against Scotland’s democracy

 

One member of the unelected gang of Scottish Lords, Baronesses, Tory and Labour, Lord Forsyth - Thatcher's man - supports his parcel of 800+ unelected former/failed politicians, party donors, Church of England bishops, hereditary peers and God knows what else in their disgraceful exploitation of Scottish dead on the field of battles and wars - just and unjust - by attacking and smearing a legal democratic process by a legally elected Parliament and Government - a referendum to ascertain the will of the Scottish people on the independence of their country - Scotland.

Keith Brown - a Falklands veteran - was a model of calm dignity and impeccable logic, putting to shame the desperate, self-serving emotional exploitation of the parcel of Lords.

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The formidable powers of an independent Scotland that Johann Lamont thinks are “wee things”: Scottish Labour’s nadir at FMQs

Scotland doesn't control the currency or interest rates at the moment. Neither does UK - they're controlled by Bank of England. We won't control them under a currency union either, but we'll have more influence than we have at the moment, as an independent country, a partner in a currency union.

ECONOMIC LEVERS: Excise duty, air passenger duty, VAT, capital gains tax, oil and gas taxation, national insurance, income tax, corporation tax, competition law, consumer protection, industry regulation, employment legislation, the minimum wage, energy markets and regulation, environmental regulations.

ALL THESE THINGS ARE CONTROLLED IN LONDON UNDER UK

ALL OF THEM WILL BE CONTROLLED IN SCOTLAND AFTER INDEPENDENCE.

We'll be able to set the minimum wage, abolish the Bedroom Tax (not just mitigate it). We will be able to transform childcare.

WE WILL BE ABLE TO REMOVE WEAPONS  OF MASS DESTRUCTION FROM SCOTLAND

WE WONT HAVE TO PARTICIPATE IN ILLEGAL WARS

Bur all of these things - which we can only do with independence - are, to Johann Lamont, "wee things".

The prospect of this woman and her cohorts leading  even a devolved Scottish Government is not to be contemplated.

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One day’s tweets, RTs and links – and it ain’t over yet …

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Tweets

1. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1m

   @FewArePict I do my best, as do thousand's of YES supporters. Get the fact out, the buttons on - buttonhole the voters!

    

3. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 3m

   No independence movement can afford to be bland, blinkered, bashful or blasé - or it's buggered ...

    

5. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 7m

   @FewArePict 307 years of UK propaganda, Labour blatant lies and compliant media are bound to influence many against logic, Debra. Info, info

    

7. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 9m

   Pete Ramand and James Foley have produced a formidably insightful analysis of core dynamic of Scottish referendum http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/23/scotland-labour-traditions-yes-vote-independence … …

    

9. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 12m

   @1982Nick No, I don't - it's here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9728171/Poll-72-per-cent-of-businesses-oppose-Scottish-separation.html …

    

11. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 15m

    @hannada39 Yes, it's critically different: this time the people have real power - for 15 hours on 15th September 2014 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pOHfkKI52M …

     

13. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 17m

    The key referendum issue is increasingly becoming the have-nots (and those who care about them) versus the haves - the I'm Alright UK Jocks.

     

15. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 20m

    @SovereignSadie Means what it says, Anne - policies such as NATO, monarchy, economy and military that mainly targeted that demographic group

     

17. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 22m

    GUARDIAN: "A hardcore of Scotland is rich, authoritarian, or militarist" - "Salmond's team has sacrificed far too much to them already"

     

19. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 23m

    @1982Nick Have a look at the polls for their impact. It may not have surprised you, but it seems to have escaped YES strategic planners.

     

21. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 26m

    Guardian: "A hardcore of Scotland is rich, authoritarian, or militarist; where these households vote yes, they are statistical flukes"

     

23. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 29m

    GUARDIAN:"For decades, poorest voters, most dependent on govmnt aid, have seen constitutional change as better guarantee .. than Labour vote

     

25. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 32m

    GUARDIAN:"Contrary to views of many Labour supporters, .. referendum is not about blood and soil separatism" It's about "societal divisions"

     

27. Pat Kane ‏@thoughtland 37m

    .@KennyFarq will it have same will-sapping Unionist misinfo, vacuous Cal-Max lifestyle options, + underpowered cultural punditry as usual?

    Retweeted by Peter Curran

     

28. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 36m

    @KennyFarq @EddieBarnes23 @scotonsunday It's come out unequivocally for YES, Kenny? I'm delighted ...

     

30. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 37m

    Scot.SocialAttitudes Survey: Wealthy Scots are resolutely hostile, 72% of business leaders are hostile to independence. And morally bankrupt

     

32. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 40m

    SSAS survey shows strong correlation between a YES and social class. 40% of households earning under £14,300 are likely to vote YES. YES!

     

34. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 42m

    Yes is . keeping what remains of social democratic decency. Scot Labour traditions are real battleground for YES vote http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/23/scotland-labour-traditions-yes-vote-independence …

     

36. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 45m

    Dolina said it all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io81u0wC9xI … Jim Sillars says Carpe diem! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pOHfkKI52M … . and Brian Wilson of 7-84? Lost in UK fantasy

     

38. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 50m

    Sillars sees that Scottish Left, lost for a century in an international socialist UK dream, will hold real power for 15 hrs only on 15 Sept.

     

39. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 58m

    "One-fifth of Scots households below basic income level" A national disgrace, directly attributable to 3 UK parties http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/one-fifth-of-scots-households-below-basic-income-level.23256880 …

     

40. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1h

    Scot.Sec.Alistair Carmichael is accused of doing too little on sex abuse allegations while he was Lib Dem chief whip http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/carmichael-accused-of-inaction-over-lib-dem-claims-1-3280694 …

     

41. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1h

    @moridura I should make it clear on my last tweet that I meant that the Telegraph was owned by the Barclay Bros - not Johann Lamont MSP

     

42. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1h

    How the Telegraph, Johann's favourite paper, owned by the Barclay Brothers, handles the Ryder Cup expenses rubbish http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10593197/Alex-Salmond-rejects-luxury-hotel-spending-criticism-as-ridiculous-frippery.html …

     

44. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1h

    "Yes vote could be making of right wing in Scotland" Only the intelligent centre-right. Bonehead right is UK-fixated http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/a-yes-vote-could-be-making-of-the-right-wing-in-scotland.23240613 …

     

46. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1h

    They just won't let this crap go - "Scottish independence: Border passport check claim http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-border-passport-check-claim-1-3280801 …

     

48. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1h

    UK Gov's lack of support for Scotland’s renewable energy industry is putting jobs and investment at risk. 'Scottish' Sec.Carmichael no help.

     

50. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1h

    @Indy4Scotland I know many who are well-informed but will still vote No - out of either selfishness or irrational emotional Brit attachment.

     

52. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1h

    @Indy4Scotland I have music and video of Scotland after a No vote, Bill. Perhaps just a little bit pessimistic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hko1TNkgUUE …

     

54. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1h

    @Shiny02 On pause, except for improving the economy, reducing unemployment and crime, tackling alcohol abuse, increasing tourism, etc. etc.

     

56. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1h

    @ShonaMcAlpine I did my best, Now I'm in the huff ...

     

58. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1h

    Over 500 hits in a day - people like a comedy horror clip. Johann Lamont stars at FMQs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zqh8NLmAC7o …

     

60. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1h

    @billyfish_66 I'm sure it reflect reality in key Labour areas. I've been at meetings where people who're anti-SNP were committed to YES vote

     

62. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1h

    @billyfish_66 You know the answer, Billy - the SNP canvassers on the doorstep with their standard canvass cards. Similar results elsewhere.

     

64. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1h

    @nataliemcgarry Result was probably inevitable, but your candidacy and canvass made a huge contribution to YES - and your day WILL come soon

     

66. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1h

    @BBCPolitics "I acted immediately - I did sweet **** *** !" Clegg

     

68. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 1h

    @ShonaMcAlpine Have a cold to jazz piano - with advice! Get better soon ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3y71XZM7-U …

     

70. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 2h

    Please don't offer rude alternative versions of Ian Davidson's SAF committee of 15 Jan with academics. SAF means Scottish Affairs Committee.

     

72. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 2h

    This is the 'uncorrected' report of Ian Davidson's SAF committee. Only a YES vote could correct this lot ... http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmscotaf/uc140-xiii/uc14001.htm …

     

74. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 2h

    @SovereignSadie It's not more nuanced than I think, Anne http://moridura.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/the-unions-and-scotlands-independence.html …

     

76. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 2h

    @ShonaMcAlpine Of course you can! Stop feeling sorry for yourself and concentrate. Take a dictionary into the shower with the Cragganmore.

     

78. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 2h

    You saw the horror move - now read the full script, as Davidson's Academics prance and dance to his Brit.Empire cues http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmselect/cmscotaf/uc140-xiii/uc14001.htm …

     

80. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 2h

    If you're doing OK, I'm Alright UK Jocks - spare a thought for 1 in 5 Scots who can't maintain an acceptable standard of living. Vote YES!

     

82. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 2h

    @ShonaMcAlpine Where is your head soaring to, Shona? But apart from that - awww, puir wee thing - there, there ... Drink a large Cragganmore

     

84. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 2h

    GMS Dr.Peter Lynch says Labour know that their voters might be "susceptible" to voting Yes. Dr.Lynch makes it sound like catching a cold ...

     

86. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 3h

    @andrew_harrop @thefabians @edballsmp UK has no economic and fiscal future - it won't exist after 2016: dead de facto from 19th Sept = rUK

     

88. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 3h

    Joseph Rowntree Foundation: Almost 400,000 households in ­Scotland are living on incomes too low to afford an adequate standard of living ­.

     

89. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 3h

    Cowdenbeath voting intentions demonstrates how vital Jim Slllar's message is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pOHfkKI52M … AND http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKDZTqxANqA … @NAEFear

     

91. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 3h

    11,727 Cowdenbeath voters: referendum voting intentions: 41% Yes, 36% No 23% undecided. Still Labour, but more indy Labour than UK Labour.

     

93. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 3h

    LibDems beaten by UKIP in Cowdenbeath. 5th place.

     

95. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 3h

    @scott_eff @NaeFear Thanks, Scott - and my thanks to Jim Sillars for cutting to the essentials of the referendum.

     

97. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 4h

    ROBERT McNEIL Herald "The idea that 16-year olds have the vote is almost as chilling as the idea that over-16s have it .." Gaun yersel, Rab!

     

99. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 4h

    @AlexRowleyCllr Congratulations Alex - do a good job for people of Cowdenbeath - and think hard about Labour and independence @labourforindy

     

101. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 4h

     Lawyers divided over Scotland's EU plans http://euobserver.com/news/122856 UK is clear Scotland WILL conform to EU rulebook - the acquis communautaire

      

103. Angus Robertson ‏@MorayMP 4h

     Welcome cross-party Syria @refugees motion with @UKLabour @theSNP @Plaid_Cymru @SDLPlive @TheGreenParty pic.twitter.com/CR4bJvBcYA

     Retweeted by Peter Curran

     

      

105. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 4h

     Danish friend on SNP and EU: "SNP's idea seem rather good, they are just notoriously bad at communicating what it is.." Tae see oorsels, etc

      

107. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 5h

     @mgreenwell Thanks!

      

109. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 5h

     Alistair Carmichael, Scottish(?) Sec. wants to move Scottish shipyard work to England, describing Portsmouth as a “well placed” contender.

      

111. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 5h

     @NaeFear http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pOHfkKI52M …

      

113. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 5h

     @mgreenwell Alistair Darling will be talking more rubbish to James Naughtie and an audience in Mitchell Theatre in Glasgow on Mar 13th, Mike

115. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 5h

     @pilaraymara Jim Sillars on a decisive moment in Scotland's history http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pOHfkKI52M …

117. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 5h

     @TheHeraldPaper Have a whip round among those who lost their homes due to Games and Accord mothers, who lost a centre for disabled children

      

119. Peter Curran ‏@moridura 5h

     BAE's Ian King says the firm has “no contingency plans” to take work away from Govan and Scotstoun in the event of a Yes vote this September

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