After the denial period by SNP supporters in the Spring of this year, when a NATO U-turn was something being got up by the wicked media – encouraged by me, apparently – and no senior party person was even considering it – so said the true believers - there was a period of quiet.
Then a press release from the SNP on the cost of Trident, emphasising the Party’s non-nuclear stance came out, and I loyally tweeted various facts from it. Maybe I should have recognised the danger signs – fifteen days later, the press began to speculate authoritatively about a U-turn on NATO, and on the 16th came the Angus Robertson/Angus MacNeill defence paper.
Labour claims a social conscience, yet squanders billions on WMDs, claims to be internationalist, yet makes war on other nations. Johann?
Scotland’s share of WMD costs, £215m could have funded 11 Community Hospitals (at £20,000,000 per hospital). Your turn, Johann Lamont? ...
Scotland’s share of WMD costs, £215m could have funded 5,972 teachers or 27 single stream Primary Schools or 11 Secondary Schools. Johann?
Scotland’s share of WMD costs = £215m - could have funded up to 430 doctors (at £500,000 per doctor) or 5,119 nurses (at £42,000 per nurse)
£2.54bn was spent on running costs of WMDs in Labour’s last 3 years in office. Labour says Yes to WMDs, but NO to Scotland's independence.
Angus Robertson: "The social cost of the UK's nuclear obsession. ...warped priority of investing in WMDs before better local services"
Over next 6 yrs Scottish taxpayers will spend £83m a year on nuclear warheads that can't be used. Enough for another 1500 service personnel.
When Scotland goes, UK lose its WMDs, its oil and whisky revenues, its raison d'etre. Scotland, England, Wales recover their
The negotiations on the terms of Scotland's independence will be dominated by the defence debate, Everyone is commenting on it - except ..?
RUSI: "..were Scotland to dissolve the Union, then the question of the UK's nuclear deterrent may be the most serious and difficult of all"
RUSI: "the future of UK nuclear deterrent should Scotland go it alone, an issue likely to dominate security agenda in event of a Yes vote."
NATO, dominated by the US, says it would never use Trident in a first strike attack. The US is the only nation that has used nuclear weapons
The two events of August 1945 - Hiroshima and Nagasaki - are the only use of nuclear weapons in war to date. A first strike attack by the US
Defence and an independent Scotland - Sitting on de fence on defence http://moridura.blogspot.com/2012/07/sitting-on-de-fence-on-defence.html … via @moridura
UK Committees with no SNP voice - Sitting on de fence on defence - http://moridura.blogspot.com/2012/07/sitting-on-de-fence-on-defence.html … via @moridura
Defence - a big yawn for the Scottish electorate? Will they still be yawning at ground zero when the WMDs rain down? http://moridura.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/sitting-on-de-fence-on-defence.html …
Labour AM Mark Drakeford opposes Trident fleet in Wales http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-18707465 …
Defence is lynchpin issue for independence negotiations. Most of my blog readers must be indy supporters, yet they don't read defence blogs?
Dean Acheson, Kennedy's NATO advisor in 1962 "Britain's role as an independent power is about played out." 50yrs on, fiction kept up by UK
Will an Independent Scotland Throw Out UK Nukes? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-T2iFNpG6A … Aye, but how long after independence before it's done? Say no to NATO
Back devomax and you back WMDs - the continuation of Trident in Scotland and more misguided foreign wars. I say NO to devomax, YES to indy.
Two news discussion tonight on indy and devo max. Both managed to avoid the nuclear/WMD aspect. BE CLEAR - Yes to devomax means Yes to WMDs.
10 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
Only independence will deliver a WMD-free Scotland. Devo max advocates are lethally compromising this key objective
10 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
Devo max = Trident stays = foreign wars = zero international influence for Scotland. So does devo-anything else. Say YES to independence
10 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
We are told there is a majority in Scotland opposed to nuclear weapons, but also that a majority that favours devo-max. Does not compute ...
10 Jul Gregor Murray @grogipher
@moridura People said that about Devolution (not in favour of devo-max, but neither do I buy your argument!)
10 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@grogipher You think a vote for devo max will remove nuclear
11 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
Why do the nuclear bombers love devo max? Why do politicians slide away from defence matters? The UK’s nuclear panic http://moridura.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/uks-nuclear-panic-and-devo-max.html …
@moridura Absolutely. I feel everyone is hedging their bets until someone throws their hat into the ring with a definitive position.
11 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@Gabicabi I wish I could escape the gnawing suspicion that a nuclear fudge is being contemplated. October SNP Nato vote will be litmus paper
11 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@Gabicabi Should qualify my last tweet - non-SNP party activists don't give a damn about Trident or WMDs. The activists most certainly do.
@moridura Yet again I agree. I believe SNP may sacrifice their position on Trident as a concession to appease scared/undecided voters.
11 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@Gabicabi Voters don't give a damn about Trident, defence. If they did that, it would be as a negotiating bargaining chip after a YES vote
The Watershed: 16th July 2010 - Angus Robertson’s media announcement on the NATO U-turn
@moridura SNP could drop opposition to Nato if Trident is removed from Scotland - Politics - http://Scotsman.com - http://po.st/K9PjwU
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@NConway2 I saw it - something I've blogged on and expressed concern about for some time now.
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
Who now doubts that the SNP leadership and Angus Robertson want to join NATO? What the Party will say in October is another matter.
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
NATO - SNP preparing to join? If the Party votes to remain in NATO after independence, I will resign my membership. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4It72lFwzR8 …
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
The SNP leadership wants to join an alliance- NATO - committed to the use of nuclear weapons so they will remove nuclear weapons. Aye, right
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
Trident poisons Scotland: Nuclear leaks, Faslane - a 2009 clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQhGJushOEc … This is what we will STILL have if we join NATO. Say NO!
16 Jul Stuart Crawford @509298
@moridura Peter, I did say this would happen. Where now for people like you? #Labour is pro nuke, so only the #Greens seem to fit the bill?
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@509298 Resign from the party, campaign for independence, vote SNP in by-elections, re-assess Scottish parties policies after independence.
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@509298 The $64 question is - will Labour be pro-nuclear in an independent Scotland. I say NO, with a reasonable amount of
16 Jul Paul Clarkson @Clarkson77
@509298 @moridura If you read @thesnp defence proposals you'll see the provision for joining #NATO is removal of Trident anf Nukes #yesscot
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@Clarkson77 @509298 @thesnp I know that - and they're nuts if they think they can negotiate any such thing - it will go into very long grass
16 Jul Paul Clarkson @Clarkson77
@509298 @moridura If you read @thesnp defence proposals you'll see the provision for joining #NATO is removal of Trident anf Nukes #yesscot
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@Clarkson77 @509298 @thesnp NATO is going to surrender Trident and the UK nuclear deterrent of we join NATO? Dream on: the idea is ludicrous
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@Clarkson77 @moraymp @509298 @thesnp He'll have answers. It will depend on the interviewer whether they cut any ice. I'm not sure at all.
16 Jul Paul Clarkson @Clarkson77
@moridura Then an Independent Scotland won't be joining #NATO , the conditions are clear. Non-negotiable. @509298 @thesnp @yesscotland
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@Clarkson77 @509298 @thesnp @yesscotland They're calling spirits from the vasty deep - it is not that simple, but it's beyond Twitter scope.
16 Jul Paul Clarkson @Clarkson77
@moridura Angus Robertson ( @moraymp )is on #scotnight as he helped write the proposal I'm sure he'll have answers. @509298 @thesnp
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@Clarkson77 @moraymp @509298 @thesnp He'll have answers. It will depend on the interviewer whether they cut any ice. I'm not sure at all.
16 Jul Paul Clarkson @Clarkson77
@moridura It is simple, no nukes or no NATO. Clear as day @509298 @thesnp @yesscotland
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@Clarkson77 @509298 @thesnp @yesscotland I wish I had a pound for everyone who said that before getting monumentally screwed in negotiation.
16 Jul Paul Clarkson @Clarkson77
@moridura It is simple, no nukes or no NATO. Clear as day @509298 @thesnp @yesscotland
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@Clarkson77 @509298 @thesnp @yesscotland You could try finishing your tweets with END OF - you're headed that way ...
16 Jul Paul Clarkson @Clarkson77
@moridura It's clear to me, if @thesnp can't deliver, we'll just have to vote someone else in 2016 who can. @509298 @yesscotland
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@Clarkson77 @thesnp @509298 @yesscotland If we join NATO, we'll either be locked into an unbreakable deal or be in open-ended negotiation.
@moridura @Clarkson77 @thesnp @509298 @yesscotland Serious question Peter. how do the other non-nuclear countries in NATO do it?
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@jafurn50 @Clarkson77 @thesnp @509298 @yesscotland They don't have the UK's nuclear fleet in their waters - read my blogs.
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
To save trying to answer endless queries on complex arguments, please go to my blog, check the index for NATO. Complex arguments need space
@moridura @Clarkson77 @thesnp @509298 @yesscotland I do read ur blogs The point is with #indy WE decide. Do you not trust SNP (if elected) ?
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@jafurn50 @Clarkson77 @thesnp @509298 @yesscotland If you've read, you haven't understood. I have no more to say that would be helpful.
16 Jul Isobel Waller @IsobelWaller
@moridura @Clarkson77 @509298 @thesnp But surely that is a given with SNP? no trident?
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@IsobelWaller @Clarkson77 @509298 @thesnp I'm beginning to wonder just what can be taken as a given with the SNP at the moment.
17 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@ElaineKY2 Of course I'm not against the YES vote. Try reading my tweets of yesterday and my blog. And see today's tweet re Norway.
17 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
#NATO Norway parallel is false as is that with other non-nuclear NATO members. None of them have the UK's nuclear arsenal on their doorstep.
16 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
NATO, the SNP, Angus Robertson, Isabel Fraser http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbI6jn2p0HU … This was effectively a filibuster by Angus to stop awkward questions.
17 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
The idea that UK/NATO will give up Scottish nuclear base for Trident as quid pro quo for an independent Scotland joining NATO is ludicrous.
17 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
I feel utterly deceived by the SNP's posture on NATO up to yesterday's news - smoke and mirrors over whether such a thing was contemplated.
17 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@bordersbankie May 2016 SNP will still be negotiating terms. If they're voted out, incoming Labour-controlled coalition won't reverse indy.
17 Jul David Munro @bordersbankie
@moridura Not sure but presumably then we would say bye bye to Nato. Bigger worry is if pro-Union parties comprise first Government imo.
17 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@bordersbankie The NATO 'offer' is a way for SNP to get an empty promise to disarm/remove nukes, then have the issue shelved for i20 years.
17 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
NATO resolution seems clear-cut - but is it?
17 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
SNP will maintain Nato membership subject to agreement that Scotland will not host nuclear weapons and will only take part in UN operations.
“@moridura: SNP NATO resolution seems clear-cut - is it?” Seems 2 b. Vote should b on B-plan tho. A-plan pines unnecessarily 2 b "credible"
17 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@thoughtland I'll need to anwer in full in blogs, Pat. Meanwhile, this will have to do for the moment. http://moridura.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07
17 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
NATO is a nuclear alliance: it will brook no interference on its WMDs from member countries with non-nuclear policies e.g. Norway, Scotland.
17 Jul David S. Berry @DavidSBerry
@thoughtland @moridura May not legitimise but are examples to follow. A non-nuclear world needs us "inside the tent" of NATO to change it.
17 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@DavidSBerry @thoughtland The utter folly of that argument is Labour, inside the UK tent since 1945 - zero influence on nuclear policy.
@moridura Peter that would be a shame are you not better inside the tent arguing ur case than outside
9:28 PM - 17 Jul 12 via TweetCaster for Android · Details
17 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@NConway2 I'm not outside it till the vote in October. But I don't believe in staying inside wrong tents - it never works. Look at LibDems.
17 Jul Lilly Hunter @LillyLyle
Those of you complaining about @thesnp tonight, have a look south of the border & count your blessings
17 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@LillyLyle Those of you afraid to confront your party when they're fundamentally wrong - remember Robin Cook, the last decent Lab MP
@moridura @LillyLyle nato is a non issue who says SNP will ever form the 1st or 2nd government or any government of an independent Scotland
17 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@NConway2 I heard the non-issue argument months ago when naive SNP supporters were denying that the SNP had any such plans. It's an issue.
@moridura Thanks Peter...please stay in the tent :-)
17 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@NConway2 Until - and if ...
18 Jul David S. Berry @DavidSBerry
@moridura @thoughtland Perhaps that's more down to Labour's folly and not my arguments: they sold out any principle on this in the 1980's.
18 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@DavidSBerry @thoughtland Long before that, David - it started with Aneurin Bevan's "going naked into the conference chamber" remark.
18 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
SNP leadership want to maintain nuclear virginity by getting rid of Trident yet join a nuclear alliance committed to retaining and using it.
20 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
Jim Sillars view of Scotland:"NATO's aircraft carrier" If this remotely reflects the SNP view what's the point of indy? http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/opinion/comment/jim-sillars-scotland-is-bound-to-stay-in-the-club-1-2422109 …
Jim Sillars: Scotland is bound to stay in the club - Comment - http://Scotsman.com - http://po.st/xzVbK6
20 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@NConway2 A club I won't want to be in - Scotland as NATO's aircraft carrier. What point to independence if this view holds sway?
20 Jul David Robertson @Daveinmaryburgh
@moridura what would your thoughts be on membership on same basis as Iceland ?
20 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@Daveinmaryburgh NATO exists as a reality that we must interact with, David. The only interaction I support is through Partnership for Peace
20 Jul Ron Wilson @TartanSeer
@moridura @NConway2 The point being the people can vote for parties opposed to NATO & if given demo assent remove Scotland from alliance
20 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@TartanSeer @NConway2 If that means "join and we can get out later" Ron, I say no - it means "go along with anything till indy then get out"
20 Jul Ron Wilson @TartanSeer
@moridura It means playing hardball 4 the prize, NATO a Unionist fox shot by Robertson, real choices after indy when you & the people decide
20 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@TartanSeer I disagree fundamentally with that, Ron. I'll have a blog up on Sillars later today.
20 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
Twitter is not exactly awash with tweets from our fearless, outspoken MSPs about how they feel about NATO. How do whips work in Holyrood?
21 Jul Stewart McDonald @StewartMcDonald
@freescotlandnow like the UN?
21 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@StewartMcDonald @freescotlandnow UN does not endorse the use of nuclear weapons, nor the policies of member countries. http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=32223&Cr=disarmament&Cr1 …
21 july Peter Curran @moridura
If SNP votes to join NATO they will move from being the best option for a nuclear-free Scotland to least worst option. I'll still vote SNP.
NATO Kosovo campaign 2001 failed to avert a humanitarian disaster - a questionable model of humanitarian intervention. http://ics-www.leeds.ac.uk/papers/vp01.cfm?outfit=pmt&folder=4&paper=816 …
21 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
Kosovo - NATO's shining hour? Absolutely not. Review of NATO’s War over Kosovo Noam Chomsky http://www.chomsky.info/articles/200005--.htm …
What NATO says about its nuclear policy. Support NATO membership and you support this http://www.nato.int/nato_static/assets/pdf/pdf_topics/20091022_Nuclear_Forces_in_the_New_Security_Environment-eng.pdf …
21 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
Presence of US nuclear forces in Europe committed to NATO provides essential political/military link between European and N.American members
21 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
Alex Salmond - against NATO intervention in Kosovo http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/02/19/demand-for-alex-salmond-apology-over-kosovo-86908-20324118/ …
Public support for NATO won't translate into YES votes for indy, but "Why leave UK if in NATO?" Most NATO supporters support the deterrent.
Whatever most Scots think, Scots won't be allowed to determine nuclear status. If we join NATO, indy Scotland won't get rid of Trident.
22 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
Poll shows majority of Scots in favour of Scot.Govn. making decision on nuclear weapons. Most of them mean a devolved government, not indy
22 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
Pro-NATO nats rejoice in poll showing majority of Scots in favour. Hardly surprising - most want to stay in the UK if other polls accurate
AngusBMacNeilMP @AngusMacNeilMP
Independence for Scotland contains all the Devo Max you could ask for- free!
23 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@AngusMacNeilMP And we won't get it if the party goes down the NATO route you favour, Angus - a golden gift to the devo/status quo brigade.
24 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@AngusMacNeilMP If you haven't read my blogs on this, I don't plan to repeat it all here. You'd better get beyond such simplistic thinking.
24 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@AngusMacNeilMP @bordersbankie Powers? What 'powers'? NATO = 3 nuclear states with a veto dominating 25 non-nuclear. Scotland's 'powers' = 0
AngusBMacNeilMP @AngusMacNeilMP
@moridura so long as u move powers from.Westminster to Scotland ..Scots can decide what forums they are in. I'd choose NATO :-)
23 Jul Peter Curran @moridura
@AngusMacNeilMP I know you would, Angus - you've put your name to the motion. You're giving up on independence with this one
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